Pre-Trib Reasoning Refuted - Part 2

Point 6
In Revelation 4:1 (Compare Rev. 1:19) we are given no alternative but that the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation begins.
A. Revelation Chapters 4 & 5 pictures the Raptured Church (O.T. & N.T. Saints symbolized by the four and twenty elders) with God in Heaven before the Tribulation begins (Rev. 6:1-19,21) and after the Church is raptured. (Rev. 4:1)
1. The word church is not mentioned after Rev.3:22 so it is assumed by some that Rev.5-22 deals only with the nation of Israel and a special group known as tribulation saints.That is an accurate statement but somewhat misleading. Although the word church isn’t used, synonyms for it are. The word saints is used 13 times depicting the church. Some scholars feel that the word saints is only used for Jewish believers but it is used in the new testament 48 times to describe the church. "Servants" is used 6 times, "those who reverence your name" (Rev.11:18), and "those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testament of Jesus" (Rev.12:17) are two other phrases that indicate the church. Rev.17:14, uses "called, chosen and faithful followers". While there are a few select verses that speak directly to Israel and/or Jerusalem in Revelations, as gentile believers we are grafted into Israel, (Rom.11:17) and thus share in some of her prophetic future discomforts as well as her blessings
2. It is felt that Rev. 4:1 "Come up hither" is a picture of the rapture. Pre 70th week believers (pre’s) look for symbolism to prop up their theories because there is no actual scripture that supports it. This one is a good example. When studying scripture it is best to look for the obvious actual meaning. Who is the passage speaking to, what is the context, etc. are a couple of questions any student of the bible must ask themselves when trying to understand what the bible is saying. If there is none, then symbolism should be considered in light of how it was previously used. I believe this passage is exactly what it sounds like, the "voice like that of a trumpet" telling John to "come up hither and be shown what must take place after this". Trying to find another meaning to this is treading upon the dangerous waters of adding to scripture. This same phrase is used in Rev. 11:12 (resurrected witnesses) & 17:1 and come hither in Rev. 21:9.
The reason why the word church is mentioned so often in Rev. 2&3 is only because John is sharing the message with seven literal churches of his day, period. It is also possible that up to the beginning of the 70th week we as the "church" had a corporate responsibility and once the 70th week begins, we will probably be focusing on individual responsibility as the "church" per se, will most likely be forced "underground".
3. Let me first point out that nowhere in the bible does it designate the 24 elders as representing the twelve tribes and/or the twelve apostles. That is pure speculation on man's part. This probably came about as a result of the pre-trib rapture belief and unfortunate errant wording of Rev. 5 in the KJV. The more reliable wording of the NIV puts a whole different perspective on who they might be. Let me show you the difference. Rev. 5:9 (KJV) - And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev. 5:9 (NIV) - 9 "And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation." Do you see how the wording of that one phrase can change the scope of the verse? The 24 elders speak again in Rev. 11:17-18 and the pronouns are in agreement in both versions so I will just quote the NIV as it is my preferred version (regardless of all the negative hype) saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth." Notice it does not say "us" anywhere here. This is important because if they hadn't been rewarded prior to then, then how did the 24 elders, if they represent the apostles and/or Israel, receive their crowns?
I say this came about because of the pre-trib rapture belief because many of them see the rapture happening in Rev. 4:1, when John is told to "come up here", which in reality is a simple command to John and that's all it is. So they see us being judged already and members receiving their awards but in Rev. 11 it shows that the rewards time had not yet occurred. Another problem with twelve of them representing the apostles is; John is still alive and not among them. Surely he would have recognized himself and would have been worthy to be one of the twelve if that is what they represented.
It is my opinion that as the Israelite temple was based on real things in heaven, so their instituted government was based on a real thing in heaven. I have no problem seeing these elders as being angels and the crowns being a sign of leadership not of rewards. Their use of the words "men" and the "saints, prophets", etc. seem to preclude the idea that they are not speaking of themselves. There are legions of angels w/ various ranks and though only one or two are mentioned in the bible as archangels, there is nothing in scripture to suggest that there can't be more. It would be only logical. The term "elder" as used here means, elderly, older or figuratively a member of the celestial council. An elder in the church isn't necessarily the oldest but those who have been christians longer and who have shown spiritual maturity. So really until it is established positively that they even represent men, I see it a waste of time to squabble over their identity. Are the twelve sons of Jacob more spiritually worthy to be included, or maybe they are prophets, but David wasn't one of either of them but he would surely be one of them? You see what I mean. Speculation can go on and on as to who they represent and what their identity might be but if they are angles, like I believe, then how many study hours have been wasted trying to prove a concept that is false to begin with.
Point 7
In Daniel 9:24-27 (Daniel's 70 weeks vision) we have prophetic proof of a pre-tribulation rapture. Daniel's 70th week (the trib) primarily and basically concerns Israel-(the Jews), and Jerusalem (not the Church). It will be "the time of Jacob's trouble" (not the Church). (Daniel 12:1; Jer. 30:7)
Ah, Yes, Dispensationalism. I was wondering when that would come up. The bible doesn’t really teach that at all. The time of Jacob’s trouble is a fact, but because it is not limited to Israel and the whole world will be affected by it, is why this separational doctrine is false. If this time was only for the jews, then why should the rest of the world be destroyed or suffer hardship as a result of it. I believe that because we as gentile believers are grafted into Israel, we will partake of some her hardships, as well as her blessings. I firmly believe that God is capable of dealing with both the church and Israel at the same time. Another phrase that describes the church age is, "the time of the gentiles". As Rev. 11:2, implies, the time of the gentiles won’t be fulfilled until the completion of the 70th week.
Point 8
In Matthew 24:42,44; 25:13; Mark 13:35-37; and Luke 21:34-36 we find Christ's Admonitions to Watchfulness and readiness. To believe anything other than a pre-tribulation Rapture totally voids the effectiveness of Christ's repeated warnings of watchfulness, readiness, preparedness, and expectancy in view of his coming for the Saints (Rapture).
The major thought behind pre-tribulationalism, is the theory of imminence. The verses you listed above hinge on a verse in each section just prior to them, Matt. 24:33, Mk. 13:29 and Lk. 21:31. Yes, we won’t know the day or the hour, but we will know the season and it is very probable that once the prophetic clock starts ticking, His return could be guessed at within a six month period or so and that would not be unscriptural. If His return was imminent, what were we to watch for? It is not his return as is commonly taught, but we are to watch for all the signs that he gave us in the Olivet Discourse, especially the signs in the heavens of the 6th seal. To be watching for His return prior to the coming of the signs He gave us, as mentioned before, would be the ultimate exercise in futility.
Point 9
In Rev. 4:1 through Rev. 22:21, the consecutive, chronological order proves a pre-tribulation Rapture. To believe anything other than a pre-tribulation Rapture totally disrupts the plain teaching and smooth flow of last-day prophecies recorded in Revelation.
As a matter of fact Revelations is in chronological order w/ the exception of Rev. 12:1-7, which gives us a summation of history up to that point. But a proper understanding of the order is what is vastly important.
Point 10
In Matthew 24:36,42,44 and Mark 13:32, we are warned not to set dates. To put the Rapture anywhere else but before the Tribulation is to set dates, and completely foul up the time factor of the Judgment Seat of Christ (Romans 14:10-12; I Cor. 3:8-12; II Cor. 5:10) and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:7-10) which BOTH take place in Heaven during the Tribulation on earth, and before the Second Coming.
Pre-wrath does not set dates, we acknowledge that the day or hour won’t be known, but that does not prevent us from seeing the signs and knowing when to "look up for our redemption draweth nigh". Mid-tribs could set a date and post-tribs as well, but as explained, this problem does not crop up in pre-wrath. The only time we can tell that it is close is when the great tribulation of Satan’s wrath begins and a shortened time later, after the signs of the 6th seal, the rapture will occur. Heaven’s time is not earth time and to believe that we must have seven earth years to complete the marriage supper and the Bema seat judgment, is not being realistic. As a matter of fact, scripture clearly shows that the marriage supper does not begin until after Daniel’s 70th week. Rev. 19:9. All of prophecy can be found in the prophetic feasts of Israel. The marriage supper after the 70th week will harmonize with the Feast of Tabernacles.
This feast depicts the Harvest of His people. Mal. 4:1-2, Is. 27:12-13, 11:11-12 and Jer. 23:7-8. That He will tabernacle with them is foretold in Ez. 37:27-28 and Rev.21:3. I believe this is also a picture of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. It is very likely that the jews that will enter the millennium in their human state and those gentiles that pass the sheep and goat judgement will be the guest at our wedding, and you usually don’t have the "supper" until after the wedding. I believe this will occur within the extra 75 day period spoken of in Daniel.